Not so much a train of thought, more a replacement bus service of godless waffle, jokes and memes with a snifter of wine and craft-beer related stuff on the side..
Monday, October 05, 2009
Latest un-PC video from PC.
Here is the latest instalment from Pat Condell; as direct and unapologetic as ever.
I don't know of this person, but I'm glad to have seen this. He does wrap up nicely some of the many inconsistencies and hypocrisies of religion, although he couldn't hit all of them, it only being a 9 minute vid.
I sometimes think I am too apathetic about the harms of religion, usually thinking of it as being irrational, but mostly harmless, but that's really not right.
Pat's been around for a while and does anti-religious stand-up (or used to), some love him, some hate him; I think he's ok, funny in a "Mr Angry of Mayfair" kind of way, some of his one liners are good.
I think you are right, lots of people cast a blind eye over the harm that religion does. I think we have been culturally brainwashed into giving it unwarranted and automatic respect when only some aspects of it are deserving.
I am very sympathetic to likening religion to government and business; I think they might well be indistinguishable. However, I do think religion is overdue for an audit.
I'm interested to know why you think that; I see it everywhere. Perhaps "brainwashed" is an exaggeration, but there is a stigma associated with criticism or questioning of religion in our society (and others, i.e. the USA). I experience it in my family, at work and wider life in general, I even experience it myself in some instances.
For example, we can have a conversation about something like Afghanistan around my office (it's open plan) and we can happily explore that topic up, down and sideways but as soon as "Islam" comes up as an important factor the conversation is killed stone dead; people just don't want to go there, there is denial or diversion at that point.
Another example would be that as an Atheist, when I express my views in public I am often labelled "militant". Its not that I care too much about the label, but if you talked about your views in public, I guarantee you wouldn't be labelled a "militant Christian", a small thing, but speaks volumes about the phenomenon IMO.
There is some kind of conditioning going on here, call it historical, traditional or cultural or something else. I'm not talking about the normal respect and restraint you'd have when talking to someone you don't know, it's more than that.
Steve - that kind of 'truly secular society' is a myth: as soon as you have any kind of belief, it will affect the way you behave and treat others, so it's impossible to keep them to ourselves. Hey, why else would we blog?
Maybe the 'stigma' is around anyone with a serious point of view. Do people not want to talk about Islam because they give it respect, or because they don't know anything about it?
Maybe being an Anglican shields me from being labelled 'militant', but there's certainly plenty of stick comes our way for being Christians. Fundamentalists, Bible bashers, God botherers, there's a list of names as long as my arm.
Robbie Williams will be on X Factor tonight singing 'Jesus didn't die for you' and I think there's just been a re-run of Richard Dawkins mini-series on evolution, where he has his customary straw man burning ceremony. Talk to Christians about whether they find this culture one that's hospitable to their faith, and most will say 'no'.
I'm not a great fan of the believers that whine a lot about 'persecution', but neither am I a fan of people like the bloke in the video who try to make us all sound like monsters. Come down to Yeovil for 24 hours and I could show you a dozen examples of where the church serves the community and does real, genuine good, that's appreciated by everyone from atheists to Jedi.
I think you are right, people do find it difficult to change their minds on topics such as these; I suppose a truly secular society remains a distant goal, personally I think it's one worth striving for.
Robbie Williams is a first order prat IMO, but perhaps that says more about me than him, he's talented for sure but I think I'd much rather have dinner with Dawkins. As for RD's attacks on religion I can see how someone like you might see a straw man; my own view is that he (and others) are really drawing a bead on the fundies in the USA and the middle-east rather than moderate more secular believers. Perhaps that's one of the challenges with religion, i.e. it's hard to separate the ideas from the people or at least their perception of themselves. Us scientists are perhaps used to a much more combative environment and tend to take things less personally, ideas come and go, evidence is the final arbiter for us.
I think there is a difference between persecution and criticism; there is plenty of real persecution in this world (especially atheists!), torture, death, discrimination, exclusion are all reserved for those with one set of beliefs or another, in fact in some places you just need to be born female to suffer a lifetime of persecution. A clean separation of secular power and faith in a society shouldn't need to involve anything like persecution one would hope!
I'm sure you can imagine how much religiously based persecution especially frustrates an atheist; who by definition feels that divine justifications for things have no merit in fact to begin with.
Religious people are inspired to do great things, there is no doubt about that as are many people of all backgrounds. Putting motive aside I really think it's true that good people do good things (full stop) and there are some excellent theories out there why that is the case. Sometimes I think it's a shame that we need to invent external reasons to do good things and I would hope such things would happen anyway, faith or none.
I am honestly surprised that you say Christians find this society "hostile", I'd have placed the needle on the other side of the gauge, just goes to show how perspectives of the same society can differ. My own perception is different from yours, the ruling elite strikes me as having a distinctly theistic aroma, even today, our society is less religious that it was certainly, but where it really matters, i.e. in the corridors of power we still seem to have some strong hang ups centred around religious themes.
13 comments:
Drat, I've been doing it all wrong for the last 13 years. Control, guilt, self-interest, of course, how could I have missed all of those?
Don't even know where to start, so I'm not going to!
Brilliant!
dmk, LOL, yes he does generalise a bit doesn't he, a secular Victor Meldrew.
I don't know of this person, but I'm glad to have seen this. He does wrap up nicely some of the many inconsistencies and hypocrisies of religion, although he couldn't hit all of them, it only being a 9 minute vid.
I sometimes think I am too apathetic about the harms of religion, usually thinking of it as being irrational, but mostly harmless, but that's really not right.
Hi Lisa,
Pat's been around for a while and does anti-religious stand-up (or used to), some love him, some hate him; I think he's ok, funny in a "Mr Angry of Mayfair" kind of way, some of his one liners are good.
I think you are right, lots of people cast a blind eye over the harm that religion does. I think we have been culturally brainwashed into giving it unwarranted and automatic respect when only some aspects of it are deserving.
Lisa - like governments and businesses, some of it does harm, some of it does good. The harm stories tend to hit the news more readily.
Steve - if this is a culture which has been brainwashed into respecting religion, then I'm Father Ted.
I am very sympathetic to likening religion to government and business; I think they might well be indistinguishable. However, I do think religion is overdue for an audit.
Hi dmk,
I'm interested to know why you think that; I see it everywhere. Perhaps "brainwashed" is an exaggeration, but there is a stigma associated with criticism or questioning of religion in our society (and others, i.e. the USA). I experience it in my family, at work and wider life in general, I even experience it myself in some instances.
For example, we can have a conversation about something like Afghanistan around my office (it's open plan) and we can happily explore that topic up, down and sideways but as soon as "Islam" comes up as an important factor the conversation is killed stone dead; people just don't want to go there, there is denial or diversion at that point.
Another example would be that as an Atheist, when I express my views in public I am often labelled "militant". Its not that I care too much about the label, but if you talked about your views in public, I guarantee you wouldn't be labelled a "militant Christian", a small thing, but speaks volumes about the phenomenon IMO.
There is some kind of conditioning going on here, call it historical, traditional or cultural or something else. I'm not talking about the normal respect and restraint you'd have when talking to someone you don't know, it's more than that.
Lisa, yes a truly secular society would be nice wouldn't it; believe what you like but keep it to yourself.
Steve - that kind of 'truly secular society' is a myth: as soon as you have any kind of belief, it will affect the way you behave and treat others, so it's impossible to keep them to ourselves. Hey, why else would we blog?
Maybe the 'stigma' is around anyone with a serious point of view. Do people not want to talk about Islam because they give it respect, or because they don't know anything about it?
Maybe being an Anglican shields me from being labelled 'militant', but there's certainly plenty of stick comes our way for being Christians. Fundamentalists, Bible bashers, God botherers, there's a list of names as long as my arm.
Robbie Williams will be on X Factor tonight singing 'Jesus didn't die for you' and I think there's just been a re-run of Richard Dawkins mini-series on evolution, where he has his customary straw man burning ceremony. Talk to Christians about whether they find this culture one that's hospitable to their faith, and most will say 'no'.
I'm not a great fan of the believers that whine a lot about 'persecution', but neither am I a fan of people like the bloke in the video who try to make us all sound like monsters. Come down to Yeovil for 24 hours and I could show you a dozen examples of where the church serves the community and does real, genuine good, that's appreciated by everyone from atheists to Jedi.
dmk, Thanks for sharing your views.
I think you are right, people do find it difficult to change their minds on topics such as these; I suppose a truly secular society remains a distant goal, personally I think it's one worth striving for.
Robbie Williams is a first order prat IMO, but perhaps that says more about me than him, he's talented for sure but I think I'd much rather have dinner with Dawkins. As for RD's attacks on religion I can see how someone like you might see a straw man; my own view is that he (and others) are really drawing a bead on the fundies in the USA and the middle-east rather than moderate more secular believers. Perhaps that's one of the challenges with religion, i.e. it's hard to separate the ideas from the people or at least their perception of themselves. Us scientists are perhaps used to a much more combative environment and tend to take things less personally, ideas come and go, evidence is the final arbiter for us.
I think there is a difference between persecution and criticism; there is plenty of real persecution in this world (especially atheists!), torture, death, discrimination, exclusion are all reserved for those with one set of beliefs or another, in fact in some places you just need to be born female to suffer a lifetime of persecution. A clean separation of secular power and faith in a society shouldn't need to involve anything like persecution one would hope!
I'm sure you can imagine how much religiously based persecution especially frustrates an atheist; who by definition feels that divine justifications for things have no merit in fact to begin with.
Religious people are inspired to do great things, there is no doubt about that as are many people of all backgrounds. Putting motive aside I really think it's true that good people do good things (full stop) and there are some excellent theories out there why that is the case. Sometimes I think it's a shame that we need to invent external reasons to do good things and I would hope such things would happen anyway, faith or none.
I am honestly surprised that you say Christians find this society "hostile", I'd have placed the needle on the other side of the gauge, just goes to show how perspectives of the same society can differ. My own perception is different from yours, the ruling elite strikes me as having a distinctly theistic aroma, even today, our society is less religious that it was certainly, but where it really matters, i.e. in the corridors of power we still seem to have some strong hang ups centred around religious themes.
Maybe it's because we're all Brits, whatever our views the world is obviously against us.....
dmk, you could be right about that, we are a much misunderstood race! :)
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